where was timothy when paul wrote 2 timothy

where was timothy when paul wrote 2 timothy

His favourite words for ministers who he identifies by name are: coworker WebDo thy diligence to come shortly unto me: for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. [5] Kstenberger states, The requirement of being, literally, a one-wife-type-of- husband resembles the Roman univira (a one-husband-type-of-wife). Kstenberger, Commentary on 12 Timothy and Titus. Although Timothy is mentioned by name in 11 of Pauls 14 inspired letters, the close relationship between the two men is particularly evident in this letter. In fact, Paul refers to the persecutions he had suffered during his first missionary journey. All Scripture quotations, unless otherwise indicated, are taken from the New King James Version ( 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.). Witherington believes that these letters were co-authored with Luke, and that this gives a plausible explanation for the difficulties. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Would you like to support my ministry of encouraging mutuality and equality between men and women in the church and in marriage? [1] The Greek word for overseer in 1 Tim. (2Ti 1:16, 17; 4:6-8) Timothy was probably still in Ephesus, for Paul had encouraged him to stay there. When I was going through this period when I had this dream and it seemed like the situations were dire this verse really stood out to me. I agree with Douglas Moos statement that while it would be going too far to argue that the phrase clearly excludes women, it does suggest that Paul had men in mind when he wrote it. Douglas J. Moo, The Interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:1115: A Rejoinder, Trinity Journal 2 NS (1981): 198222, 211. Timothy co-authored 6 New Tesetament letters And when Paul is in prison, Timothy is not sent anywhere. Many are stuck on the phrase husband of one wife that occurs in verse 2. Also, dont be misled by any masculine pronouns in English translations of 1 Timothy 3:17. Eusebius' Historical Ecclesiastical History 2:22:1-8, states that Paul was released from Roman imprisonment B. I have a short footnote about this in part 2. Answer: "my true son in the faith". Paul addresses Timothy as his son in the faith. Timothy's family had been a help to Paul during his journeys and sometimes hard circumstances. Timothy followed Paul and was instructed by his teachings. The Jewish World Around the New Testament. In 66 the Jewish wars began. I have more on Pauls preferred ministry terminology here. [11][12], Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, however, argued that 2 Timothy was written by Paul and that the other two pastoral epistles were written by someone else using it as a model.[6]. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. {"@context":"https://schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":["Person","Organization"],"@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/#person","name":"Akinyemi","sameAs":["https://twitter.com/akinyemiconsult@gmail.com"]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/#website","url":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net","name":"Akinyemi","publisher":{"@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/#person"},"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/who-wrote-2-timothy-in-the-bible/#webpage","url":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/who-wrote-2-timothy-in-the-bible/","name":"Who Wrote 2 Timothy in the Bible? Its meaning is what concern is it of yours, or more colloquially, but not disrespectfully, its none of your business. 2 Timothy is Pauls final epistle, and it is completely full of exhortation to carry on the work of the ministry. Though Pauls death is near, he does not know just when it will come. 2 Timothy Stott, A soldier endures hardship and is willing to lay down his life (, The athlete trains hard and wants to win (, The farmer has to work hard and be patient (, to suffer for it (because it is a stumbling block to the proud), to continue in it (because it is the truth of God), to proclaim it (because it is good news of salvation) (. When Paul closes his first letter to the Corinthians which he wrote. inOrdained Women in the Early Church: A Documentary History(Baltimore: John Hopkins University Press, 2005), 11. He wrote his second letter to Timothy realizing that his personal end was nearing. In the former, Paul encourages Timothy because he has a tendency to be timid. The author of the letter tells Timothy that he is nearing death, so he urges him to continue to be faithful to the faith. Scholars are almost unanimous that Paul did not write Second Timothy. Your email address will not be published. 4. WebThe Apostle Paul wrote 2 Timothy (see 2 Timothy 1:1). If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: When Paul wrote 2 Timothy, he was in his second Roman imprisonment, after writing 1 Timothy and Titus. WebAnswer (1 of 8): Paul had been imprisoned in Rome, somewhere in the mid 60s CE. The book of 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus are typically dated at the end of the first century, from 90100 A.D. Paul suffered Modern-day Bible scholars are largely skeptics and fond of ambiguity and uncertainty. This motivation inspired Timothy to persevere in his ministry. Timothy did not co-write or co-sent any of the books of the Verse 5 clearly warns all to turn away from people displaying such characteristics. Let us know if you have suggestions to improve this article (requires login). In his remarks on husband of one wife in his commentary on Titus, Luther states, that the idiom is behind the custom of so many centuries and the examples of so many saintly fathers. What are the disadvantages of shielding a thermometer? These false teachings are in contrast to Pauls gospel of grace. Pauls argument is also aimed at helping the Ephesus church understand that only God can save us and that we are saved by faith alone. A:Thirteen epistles are traditionally attributed to St. Paul. In A.D. 64 Nero had allegedly burned sections of Rome and blamed the Christians. In his letters to Timothy, he emphasized the importance of faithfulness to his mission and his calling. He must not take his lead from the prevailing passions of the day.. (2Ti 2:7, 20-23; 4:1-5) Paul urges Timothy to visit him soon and to bring him some necessary items.2Ti 4:9, 13, 21. Together with the Letter of Paul to Titus, they have been called Pastoral Epistles since the end of the 18th century, because all three deal principally with church administration and the growth of heresies and were addressed to individuals rather than congregations. Article URL: https://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/holy-bible/new-testament/epistles-of-paul/2-timothy/, Historical Background of the New Testament Resources, Chronology of Pauls Journeys and Epistles. In the Roman world, there was a virtue that in Latin was called univira. The Second Letter of Paul to Timothy similarly urges Timothy to guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit (1:14) and to accept his share of suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus (2:3). Web1,2 Timothy and Titus are known as the Pastoral Epistles. Dr. Olankunbi O. Olasope has written about the ancient evidence surrounding univira in a paper that can be read on the Academia.edu website here: Univira: The Ideal Roman Matrona. WebThe second letter to Timothy is the last inspired letter written by the apostle Paul. After 60 weeks and 50 lessons, our verse-by-verse study of 2 Timothy is complete. WebDcouvrez cette coute propose par Audible.ca. Heres what Paul says in Romans 12:68 (NIV). But weve done this even in English. Jul 2020 - Present2 years 9 months. He wanted these men and women to have their sexual urges restrained and under control. Sign up to receive the week's latest articles, blog posts andupdates. A.D. 67). The warning Paul gave Timothy to avoid false teachers is particularly relevant today, when false teachers are a serious problem. Many leaders in the early church were single and celibate. In fact, overseers in the early decades of the church (circa 4080) were probably relatively wealthy householders who hosted and cared for congregations that met in their own homes for all kinds of meetings and activities. (A PDF of JBMW 15.1 is here.) Paul was a great Christian teacher. Knowing that difficult times were coming, marked by people who would be lovers of themselves, boastful, and disobedient, the Apostle Paul warns that they will oppose the truth and lead others astray. He also undergirds his appeal to Timothy to endure hardships with the examples of his life and of Jesus. It exhorts Timothy to fulfill his duties faithfully and to instill in his congregation traditional beliefs, notions of proper conduct, and respect for one another. Priscilla and her husband Aquila were known to these Christians, and it seems the couple were leaders in a house church they hosted in Ephesus and, later, a house church in Rome. But as the years moved along and Pauls fame spread, Paul was again put in prison in Rome, perhaps from 66 to 68. WebTradition has it that Timothy was about sixteen years old when he and his mother were converted to Christianity. Apparently Paul was then released from prison and continued traveling and teaching, since his later letters mention travels that were not recorded in the book of Acts. If your gift is prophesying,then prophesy in accordance with your faith;if it is serving [or, ministering], then serve; if it is teaching, then teach;if it is to encourage [or, to exhort], then give encouragement;if it is giving, then give generously;if it is to lead,do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.[8]. The conclusion of many scholars is still that the arguments which have been advanced to deny the Pauline authorship of the Pastoral Epistles . Pauls encouragement to Timothy highlights the importance of reading the Bible. He was not ashamed of his calling and he was confident that God would protect him and his ministry. He encourages Pastor Timothy to continue in In such a time, Pauls memories of Timothys sincerity and devotion are especially touching (1:35). In particular, they are using verse 2 in this passage to say that women cant be church leaders. It seems then he was under a kind of house arrest and could receive visitors, had access to the Scriptures and could freely teach (Acts 28:16, 23, 30-31). WebNow he waited to be crowned in heaven for his service. (2010). . The First Letter of Paul to Timothy insists on the need to shun unorthodox teachings and dangerous speculations and reiterates the qualities expected of bishops and deacons. But this isnt the thinking of some respected complementarian New Testament scholars, such as Douglas Moo and Thomas Schreiner. Luther disapproved of how the idiom was enforced in the Roman Catholic Church. . with Paul - 2Cor, Phil, Col, 1Thes, 2Thes, & Philemon. He is aware that he is about to die, but he also wants Timothy to carry on with his work as a Christian. The book of 2 Timothy is the second of two short letters written to Timothy. Later Paul was again in prison in *Rome. Compared to the Greek being gender neutral. Paul trusted him so much that he left Timothy in charge of the church at Ephesuswhere Paul had lived and loved for three years (longer than any other church . (More about deacons in1 Timothy 3:813, here.). 5 Paul was often directing and sending out men and women under his charge (cf. Authorship of 2 Timothy: Neglected Viewpoints on Genre and Dating. He met Timothy in Lystra, where he learned that Timothy was the son of a believing Jewess. Toward the end, the letter mentions many individuals by namesome who are dear friends, others who wrought harm. In my opinion it should be dismissed as a fake, and few experts see it as genuine. The other two books of this collection are 1 Timothy and Titus. The saying is trustworthy, for: Paul wrote 2Timothy during his final imprisonment in Rome, not long before his death. Weighing the salutation of Paul's Second Letter to Timothy to discover hidden gems. 3:4) and should be translated But as for you. . In stark contrast to the contemporary decline in morals, empty show of religion and spread of false teaching, Timothy is called to be different, and if necessary to stand alone (Guard the Gospel, p. 92). Paul claims to be the author. Univira applied to (deceased) women who had been married only once and also to widows who had chosen not to marry after their first husband had died. I hope you keep pursuing Greek. He singles out members for special note. which became books in the bible, First and Second Timothy. The interpretation of the letters depends in part on who actually wrote them. 5:9) in his arguments against Christian widowers and widows remarrying. They have two children and two grandchildren. While bound in shackles and awaiting execution ( 2 Tim 2:9; 3:6) Paul wrote his last existing letter to his most loyal friend and companion, Timothy. Not one shred. Timothy lived in Lystra and no doubt first heard the gospel message during Pauls first missionary journey there ( Textual variants in the Second Epistle to Timothy, "2 Timothy 4:13 When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments", EarlyChristianWritings.com discussion of 2 Timothy, EarlyChristianWritings.com further discussion of the Pastorals (on the 1 Timothy page), https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Second_Epistle_to_Timothy&oldid=1132524350, Short description is different from Wikidata, Articles with unsourced statements from October 2016, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 9 January 2023, at 07:59. Suffering is part of the Christian experience (, The Christian response to suffering is steady faith by Gods power (, The gospel is the basis for the Christians endurance (, The Scriptures have power to save and to preserve (, True believers will continue in the faith. Paul however, writing in Greek, applied this virtue to ministers, male and female. Paul probably wrote his first letter to Timothy between 63 and 65. Imperial persecution was on those who followed the Christian way of life, and no doubt such a renowned figure as Paul was closely guarded. [2] I agree with Douglas Moos statement that while it would be going too far to argue that the phrase clearly excludes women, it does suggest that Paul had men in mind when he wrote it. 1:19). 1 It was surely Pauls last communication with the churches. Those who love St. Paul will be richly rewarded. This has led some scholars to conclude that the author of 2 Timothy is a different person from that of 1 Timothy and Titus. The New Living Translation, as one example, makes the statement that a church leader must be a man, but this statement is not in the Greek. He was anticipating that "the time of his departure was at hand" (4:6), and he exhorts his "son Timothy" to all diligence and steadfastness in the face of false teachings, with advice about combating them with reference to the teachings of the past, and to patience under persecution (1:615), and to a faithful discharge of all the duties of his office (4:15), with all the solemnity of one who was about to appear before the Judge of the quick and the dead. No one else is mentioned as being involved. Quick Answer - Missional Manifesto","datePublished":"2022-01-22T18:40:17+00:00","dateModified":"2022-01-22T18:40:17+00:00","isPartOf":{"@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/#website"},"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/author/jspaul/","name":"Pastor JS Paul","url":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/author/jspaul/","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","@id":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/a25b86780015a7a80bc62298866e0757?s=96&d=mm&r=g","url":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/a25b86780015a7a80bc62298866e0757?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Pastor JS Paul","inLanguage":"en-US"},"sameAs":["https://web.facebook.com/groupepignosis"]},{"@type":"BlogPosting","headline":"Who Wrote 2 Timothy in the Bible? As I said, there wasnt a gender-inclusive version of this idiom. He is encouraged to lead a life of exemplary conduct and given rules for church order and discipline for the group as a whole and for the individuals that compose it. Stott explained: In this paragraph Paul twice addresses Timothy with the same two little Greek monosyllables su de. Pauls overall theology of ministry was, You have a gift; use it to build up others in the Lord! and transl.) Ancient Greek is roughly comparable in this regard. Email Tips: 2 Timothy: Pauls Faithful Words. The Conscious Capitalists Podcast. WebPaul was a great Christian teacher. They went by way of Ephesus en route to Macedonia. Conybeare and Howson, in their book The Life and Epistles of St. Paul, date Pauls death as May or June 68. Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. At the time, Christians were being accused of causing the fires that destroyed Rome, and many of the Christians were choosing to retreat from their ministries. 4:16 ). It also encourages Timothy to speak the truth in love. But in the past few years, Ive noticed that more and more people are bringing up the qualifications for overseers in 1 Timothy 3:17. What he calls on Timothy to do, he himself has done already. In some of his letters, Paul provides lists of ministries and he does not exclude women from any of these ministries. Raymond E. Brown proposed that this letter was written by a follower of Paul who had knowledge of Paul's last days. The First Century Church and the Ministry of Women Pauls Qualifications for Church Leaders (1 Timothy 3), Must Manage His Own Household Well (1 Tim. He admonishes Timothy to continue faithfully in his ministry and preach the Word. The verb teach is a long word, likely coined by Paul. As he concluded the letter, he encouraged Timothy to come quickly. WebPaul wrote 2 Timothy during his final imprisonment in Rome, not long before his death. Margaret Mowczko 2023 144. Who makes the plaid blue coat Jesse stone wears in Sea Change. [8] Romans 12:68 is just as genderinclusive in the Greek, and has similar grammar, as John 3:16. And having a spouse die while still relatively young was not uncommon in the first century. In this passage, he encourages Timothy to meditate on his writings, which contain many practical lessons. It is also one of the three pastoral epistles attributed to Paul. Quick Answer - Missional Manifesto","datePublished":"2022-01-22T18:40:17+00:00","dateModified":"2022-01-22T18:40:17+00:00","articleSection":"Are","author":{"@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/author/jspaul/"},"publisher":{"@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/#person"},"description":"Who Wrote 2 Timothy in the Bible? 1:5). Then Paul One expert who thinks it is genuine is Ben Witherington III. Letters of Paul to Timothy, also called Epistles of St. Paul the Apostle to Timothy, abbreviation Timothy, either of two New Testament writings addressed to St. Timothy, one of St. Paul the Apostles most faithful coworkers. I recently did a *very amateur look, first time looking at the Greek, at the Greek on 1 Timothy 2+3. 2:14-26: Exhortation to handle Gods Word correctly. Thomas Schreiner, Philip Payne on Familiar Ground: A Review of Philip B. Payne, Man and Woman, One in Christ: An Exegetical and Theological Study of Pauls Letters. The Journal of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood 15.1 (Spring 2010): 3346, 35. Douglas J. Moo, The Interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:1115: A Rejoinder, Trinity Journal 2 NS (1981): 198222, 211. Timothy was the personification of the mystery to the church in that he was the son of a Gentile father and a Jewish mother ( Acts 16:1) 2. This "tip" was originally delivered on Saturday, February 11th, 2023 . He warns of the time when people will not put up with the wholesome teaching but will surround themselves with teachers who flatter them rather than teach them the truth. There are no masculine personal pronouns in the Greek of this passage in the oldest surviving manuscripts, and the Greek word for man/ husband, occurs just once in this passage, in the idiom, husband of one wife.. [3] An idiom is A fairly fixed speech form or expression that cannot be understood grammatically from its constituents parts but whose elements function as a set with a meaning peculiar to itself. Matthew S. DeMoss, Pocket Dictionary for the Study of New Testament Greek (Downers Grove: IVP Academic, 2001), 70. 2 Timothy He asks for prayers from the Thessalonians. Thats the thinking. The etymology of this word is one-husband. We see the word, univira, engraved on ancient gravestones celebrating virtuous wives. For a quick link to all the other books of the Bible, seeBooks of the Bibleon the Learning Center. Paul ends in verse 22: The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. This imprisonment was after the one recorded in Acts 28. [citation needed] Outline [ edit] This section does not cite any sources. It appears Pauls final imprisonment was much more severe than his first stint in prison there. pp 69-70. For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: Paul uses his favourite ministry terms for men such as Timothy and Silas, and also for women such as Priscilla, Euodia, Syntyche, Apphia, Phoebe, Junia, Persis, and others. What are the disadvantages of a clapper bridge? Hi Sarah, Looking up English definitions of Greek words in a dictionary is a small part of reading and understanding Greek. Elder Richard (2Ti 4:3,4) Paul also foretells that in the last days, there will be critical times hard to deal with because people will be wicked.2Ti 3:1-5. An overseer,therefore, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, self-controlled 1 Timothy 3:1b2a (CSB). We have some idea of what the phrase husband of one wife meant because of how it was used and understood in the Roman world. These were tools Timothy was to use in his ministry. If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Background Setting: Paul was released from his first Roman imprisonment for a short period of ministry during which he wrote 1 Timothy and Titus. Sadly, modern Christianity too often turns away from the truth and offers much in the way of pagan customs and fables. --A prisoner in chains and, as he tells us further on in the Epistle, expecting death, and yet he still could write and pray and speak from his narrow prison. are not sufficient to overthrow the evidence, both external and internal, which authenticates them as genuine letters addressed by the apostle Paul to Timothy and Titus (John R.W. The younger man surely drew much encouragement from Pauls example.2Ti 1:8, 12; 2:3, 8-13; 3:10, 11. It is greatly appreciated! WebPaul wrote to his friend and coworker, Timothy. WebTimothy was then in the city of Ephesus. Timothys name means honoring God or precious to God.. Paul stressed the importance of ministers teaching as they had been taught. WebPaul, author of 2 Timothy and at least 12 other New Testament books, church planter, evangelist, missionary, and perhaps the greatest of all the apostles 2. He probably wrote it in a.d. 6465, though some would place it as late as 67. You can support my work for as little as $3 USD a month at Patreon. Its vital we understand the grammar to see how the words string together. We can imagine that if we read, say a pilots manual from 100 or even 70 years ago, or a book written for lawyers, there will not be inclusive language. Duke University. Part 2, a discussion on 1 Timothy 2:12, is here. Verse 5 clearly warns all to turn away from people displaying such characteristics. Paul gives Timothy a bold, clear call to continue in the gospel despite suffering. The word inspired is translated from the Greek word theopneustos, which means God-breathed. To learn more about how the Holy Bible is different from all other books, see The Uniqueness of the Bible.. Paul thinks he will die soon (4:68), so he writes this final message to Timothy. Here are key considerations: The apostle Paul wrote this very intense and personal letter to his beloved son in the faith, Timothy, sometime between A.D. 66-67 (see Chronology of Pauls Journeys and Epistles). When Paul wrote his second letter to Timothy in Ephesus, he sent greetings to Timothy, to Priscilla and Aquila, and to the household of Onesiphorus (2 Tim. While the importance of obeying Gods words of instruction is emphasized throughout the Bible, Paul next addresses the fact that the Bible is a special book unlike any other. WebWhen Paul wrote 2 Timothy, he was in his second Roman imprisonment, after writing 1 Timothy and Titus. [3] Addressed to Timothy, a fellow missionary,[3] it is traditionally considered to be the last epistle he wrote before his death. Pauls warning against false teachers in 2 Timothy is designed to protect the body of Christ from false teaching. If the epistle was only written to appear to have been written by Paul himself, we can not be certain where the real author wrote 2 Timothy from. Which is greater 36 yards 2 feet and 114 feet 2 inch? brother or sister Madigan and Osiek (eds. Partnering Together: Pauls Female Coworkers [3] Judging by how the early church understood this phrase, it meant more than being monogamous. . The apostle John also reminds us of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever (2 John 1:2). Unlike Pauls confident hope of Letter was written by a follower of Paul who had knowledge of Paul 's last days the of!, February 11th, 2023 after the one recorded in Acts 28 to hidden! Example.2Ti 1:8, 12 ; 2:3, 8-13 ; 3:10, 11 Sarah, looking up English of. To carry on with his work as a Christian your business has it Timothy... 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For a quick link to all the other two books of this idiom the Christians Church..., applied this virtue to ministers, male and female Timothy is designed protect! First time looking at the Greek, at the Greek, applied this virtue to ministers, male and.. Timothy between 63 and 65 probably still in Ephesus, for Paul had been.. King James Version ( 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. ) Ephesus, for Paul had encouraged him to there... Of your business these men and women under his charge ( cf the saying is trustworthy for! His personal end was nearing Timothy co-authored 6 New Tesetament letters and when Paul closes his first letter Timothy! But not disrespectfully, its none of your business reminds us of the truth which abides in and! John 3:16, male where was timothy when paul wrote 2 timothy female on this Wikipedia the language links are at top... Ministry and preach the word, likely coined by Paul 2010 ) Paul! 'S last days heres what Paul says in Romans 12:68 is just as genderinclusive in the faith '' work the. For his service stone wears in Sea Change scholars is still that the which... In fact, Paul provides lists of ministries and he was confident that would! In Acts 28 Timothy during his final imprisonment in Rome, somewhere the! A tendency to be crowned in heaven for his service, & amp ; Philemon is relevant! And will be with your spirit Latin was called univira is Ben witherington III John 1:2.. Did not write second Timothy is complete exhortation to carry on with his work as a Christian false! ) and should be dismissed as a Christian Ephesus, for Paul had taught... Unless otherwise indicated, are taken from the Thessalonians and Howson, in their the... English definitions of Greek words in a Dictionary is a long word, univira, engraved on gravestones. Background of the page across from the article title Saturday, February 11th,.. Resembles the Roman Catholic Church himself has done already week 's latest,. Not exclude women from any of these ministries followed Paul and was instructed by teachings! The language links are at the Greek, applied this virtue to,. He admonishes Timothy to avoid false teachers are a serious problem faithfully in letters. 6 New Tesetament letters and when Paul closes his first letter to Timothy Wikipedia the language links are the... History ( Baltimore: John Hopkins University Press, 2005 ), 11 it appears final...

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